Date: Aug 06, 2018 1:01 am Title: Chapter 16
I liked how Justin asserted his fatherhood in getting Gus to bed and Gus didn't question it. Gus is one smart little boy. Do away with the bullshit and get right to the point. Let the anger go, be silly, be happy. Out of the mouth of babes as the cliche goes.
Big step in repairing their relationship.
Jennifer is definitely right about Justin never being like Craig. Never ever will he be like Craig.
Author's Response:
Yes, Gus is one smart little boy. Maybe even too smart for his own age ;)
No, he could never be like Craig, but I guess getting thrown into fatherhood from one day to the next without any time to prepare for it might make you doubt yourself and might wake some demons inside you :(
Poor Justin and the boys really do deserve some happiness after all this :)
Date: Aug 05, 2018 10:01 pm Title: Chapter 16
You replied:
"I don't believe in revenge and I don't have an ounce of vindictiveness in me."
But I'm not asking about revenge or vindictiveness. I'm asking about accountability. Holding someone accountable for their behavior is not vengeful or vindictive. It's simply demanding that others own their behaviors and make reparations to those they've injured. It is the right thing to do. It is the right thing to teach our children. It is the right thing to do for our society. It is why we have laws and social mores. I don't share your views that personal happiness is dependent upon an absolute absence of anger or an absolute need for forgiveness. Anger can be a righteous emotion and we have that emotive ability for a reason - it can be a valid emotional response on our own behalf or the behalf of others. I *will* be angry at the murderer, the rapist, the kidnapper, the racist, the homophobe, and I will feel no shame in that anger. It drives me to hold them accountable for their actions.
Children do not learn accountability by never seeing it put into practice, by never seeing their parents - their first teachers - demand respect and fairness for themselves when others have grossly betrayed them. They do not learn to stand up for others by never seeing someone stand up for themselves. By seeing our parents demand respect for themselves from other adults, kids learn how to demand it for themselves. If they don't see their foundational teachers do so, how will they learn those things? How can they learn to stand up for others if they never learn to stand up for themselves?
"I am very curious to see if we will ever manage to get on the same page about these characters :)"
LOL. I doubt it. We have very different world-views, I think. (Doesn't mean I can't enjoy the story, however.) I just think about who Rage is, what it was based on, and the words of Brian as he sat in Justin's living room with the 'rents. He was not confused at all that there *are* indeed lines that are impossible to uncross once they've been crossed. Expecting Justin to dilute himself, to deny his own emotional needs and his psychological system for the "sake of the family" was, in Brian's own words, hate, not love.
Thanks for letting me philosophize about this story without taking offense. I honestly don't mean to offend at all. Just trying to wrap my head around the viewpoint. And everybody else? Just skip over all my shit here. I'm (perhaps unfortunately) one of those wordy types who love to argue the philosophy of a point until everyone else in the room yells at me to shut up or pulls out the duct tape for my mouth! Yes, that has actually happened. LOLOL
Author's Response:
As for accountability: What would you like Justin to do? Take Brian to court? Never speak to his mom and Debbie again? What good would that do for anyone involved?
He has shown them all how hurt he has been by their actions and they have seen the pain they have caused him and as Jennifer said, that is something they will all have to live with until the end of their days. They know what they have done and they will have to live with that guilt. They will have to live with the knowledge that they have taken something valuable away from Justin that he will never get back.
Gus and Luke know that Brian has done something bad to Justin and at least Gus is fully aware of Justin's pain and how hard it is for him to be around the other adults. Gus sees how tense the interactions between Justin and Brian and Justin and Jennifer are and knows it's because they have done something bad to Justin.
As for your mention of rapists, kidnappers, racists, homophobes, etc. I do get that you're angry at them. I do understand people who are, but when I hear stories about those crimes or I meet racists and homophobes, my biggest interest is trying to understand these people. How did they turn into the people they are now? What made them have the opinions they do? For me there is always the need to understand. And that always rates higher than anger... And yes, I have met racists and homophobes firsthand as I work with immigration/refugee charities and LGBT charities. For me I don't feel anger when I encounter these people, I feel pity for how narrowminded they are and feel a need to understand how they turned into who they are. How they could go through the same school system I went through, could learn the same things I have learned and take away such different lessons from it.
As you said - we have very different world views. And that is fine - as I've said before: Life would be so boring if we all thought the same and agreed on everything. This diversity makes life interesting :)
I for one love reading your thoughts as they give me a completely different point of view to my own and make me think a lot about myself, my views and the characters in this story. So thank you for getting my grey cells going :D I am absolutely not taking any offense and hope you don't either when you get my replies. As said - I love that you get my brain cells going and make me think :)
So don't worry about me getting out the duct tape anytime soon ;)
Date: Aug 03, 2018 2:33 pm Title: Chapter 16
Seriously you can’t seem to allow Justin his anger you just feel a need to turn him into a pod person who allows himself to be walked all over. There is no need to forgive everyone Justin no longer needs a relationship with Mommy. You unfortunately felt this forgive and forget vibe and went with it, thus ruining Justin the anger gave you something to work with this just puts Brian and Justin on a path to nowhere unless you have them fucking again and get Brian pregnant again to the total destruction of your story though I see you going for a happy ending when this story would be so much better without one...
Author's Response:
Most people feel the need for a relationship with their mother their whole life - it's not about needing our mothers in our lives, it's about wanting them in our lives and despite the pain and betrayal, Justin does love his mother and wants to find a way for her to be a part of his life. Because he loves her!
Brian and Justin fucking and Brian getting pregnant again? Haha... okay... uhm, no. Not going to happen!
As for the happy ending - we have barely reached the halfway point of the story. There is still a lot to happen before we get to the ending and will be able to judge if we like it or not ;)
Thanks for your comment! More will be up soon!
Date: Aug 02, 2018 2:31 pm Title: Chapter 16
I have to agree with NoChaser here. Why was Justin trying to sooth Jennifer’s feelings? Again I ask where is all this strength he’s supposed to have? It seems that all he is doing is supplying his abusers with excuses for their behavior. He has got to put his foot down at some point, and stop trying to move forward based on lies. Damn it he had the opportunity to be completely honest with Gus and he wasn’t. Gus is 10....not 2 he is at an age where he can handle a little straight talk. Justin needs to man up and quick.
Author's Response:
Justin was trying to sooth her because she's his mom and despite everything he loves her. Despite all the pain and betrayal, he loves his mother and needs her in his life and he doesn't like seeing her like that.
Nobody likes to see people they love in pain and Justin is no different there.
And the very act of trying to sooth Jennifer, of trying to move forward from the pain she has caused him, of accepting that he wants her to be a part of his life and him being willing to give her a chance to be in his life - that is strength!
Justin could have chosen the easy option and could have chosen to never speak to his mother, Brian or Debbie ever again - but what good would that have done? The pain would have festered inside him and then? What? Where would that have let him?
As for Gus: Yes, he's ten, not two, but that doesn't mean that a boy that has already been traumatised by the actions of his parents (Lindsay being in prison, him living with Brian, an ugly custody battle between his parents) needs to be traumatised any further. Justin has been honest with him: Gus knows that it was Brian and Jennifer who have caused Justin pain. Gus knows that Justin is struggling with that pain and how to deal with Brian and Jennifer and that is enough for him to know at this point. Will he and Luke never find out what really happened? Of course they will! But not now when they're still this young... too young.
Thanks for your comment - I really appreciate you sharing your point of view :)
Date: Aug 02, 2018 1:23 pm Title: Chapter 16
Hi again! I've to repeat myself... Fantastic writing-style, very exciting and you choosed a damned difficult topic! It makes us think about life itself, about guilt, forgiveness and according to the many different reviews, there are many different views about it. But that alone is great. There is no wrong or right, no black or white, there are many different colours and everyone has to choose how to spend the time we are given here, and how to behave.
So, this is my opinion. I think it's great, that you choose Gus to help Justin through this very painful and sensitive moment. He lets Justin see what's important in a way maybe only children are able to. We can learn so much by looking at and listening to our children. I know, also children can be cruel and all that stuff, but most of the time they are still innocent and see the world in a different way. "You want to be happy - so be happy" I know it's not as easy as it sounds but I think it's the right direction. And just because Brian and others like Jennifer have chosen a wrong path and done a terrible mistake, Justin doesn't have to do that too. I don't envy Justin, because he has all the cards in his hands, he has to decide which way to go, also in which direction all their lifes will go. Of course, he could at least claim Luke, fight Brian, reduce contact with Brian, Jennifer, and everyone else, but what would happen? There would be just fights and hate... First and foremost, this behavior would harm the children. Luke and Gus might not be able to live together anymore. And even the adults wouldn't find peace and by that I mean also Justin. He wouldn't be happy and later they would have children who would have issues themselves. And yeah, this is not Justin's fault. I blame all of them except Justin. But he's the only one now who can decide... Forgiveness, also to find own happiness, is a difficult topic, and I see that very ambiguously myself... I don't know if anyone here knows the film "The Shack". I've seen this movie with a friend and we had long discussions after it. At first the film got me really excited in a negative way. I'm not religious and to imagine to forgive the murderer of my child... I continue to find it too much, but still I think - even while reading your story - again and again to this movie, so it couldn't be that bad, right? I don't envy Justin and I don't want to get stuck in his skin and decide, but he's not weak at all. I rather admire him for his incredible strength and foresight. He could opt for the simpler way and surrender to his grief and seek revenge, but in the long run, nobody would benefit from that. And so he chooses the harder way, but in the end someday everyone will be happy again. Because I can't imagine that Brian and Jennifer were happy in those years, their guilt must have been almost unbearable. The Jennifer we met in this chapter also shows at least deep regret. That's what I missed about the Jennifer, who said she could treat Justin like a pubescent boy. So yes, if Justin is able to try to forgive his mother, I can try too. :-)
It's nice to see that Justin can now also find some comfort and encouragement from his mother. I already wrote it in the previous review. He finds himself suddenly in a completely new role as a father and is naturally afraid of doing something wrong here.
Great chapter! Another little step in the right direction. I'm happy for Justin and also for Luke and Gus! Warmest regards!
Author's Response:
Yeah, I don't make life easy for myself as a writer. Angst means angst to me and I do dive in fully ;) And yes, I am amazed by all the different reviews and all the different experiences people are pulling from when replying on this story. As you mentioned: There is no right or wrong, there is no black or white and it is really fascinating for me to read all these different points of views. I have never expected to reach people like that and I feel very flattered :)
Children have an innocence and a view at life about them that has always impressed me in all the years I have worked with them. I think it's sad that we lose that the older we get and I think it's sad that we are sometimes making life so hard on ourselves. But I guess that's what happens when we experience pain, betrayal and bad things ourselves. They harden our emotions and we start putting up walls to protect ourselves that children just don't need because they don't know pain like that yet.
I am glad that you picked up on Justin holding all the cards - he had the choice to decide for all of them where they would be headed and he tried to make the best choice for everyone involved. Not a choice that would have been easy for him, but a choice he believes is best for all of them. Unlike them, he did consider their feelings, unlike them he looked at what other people wanted and didn't just make the choice that suited his needs best. And yes, I agree: If he had let his pain and anger win, there would have only been losers. The children would have suffered and Justin himself couldn't have found happiness either that way.
Yes, I know "The Shack" and have seen it as well. I have to agree, it was "too much" for me in some ways, but just like with you, it really made me think and it made me question a lot of things about myself. About what I would have done. I like stories (books, movies) that make me question my own actions and reactions. I am a religious person, but not in the way of organized religion and while I do believe in morals and values like forgiveness and tolerance and the likes, I believe that we should forgive for our own good, not because a book or a god in the sky tells us to. I honestly believe that forgiveness allows us to move forward and makes us better people and anger, while sometimes the easier option, doesn't do anyone any good. Anger has never solved anything in this world and I don't see much point in being angry at someone. Of course I do get angry (I am not Jesus or Buddha!), but then I get annoyed at myself for having spent that energy on anger when I could have spent it on something more worthwhile. I am a very twisted person ;)
Yes, hopefully this was another step in the right direction and will help them all to move forward. Justin and the boys deserve it! They are long overdue for some real happiness :)
Thank you so much for your comment - I really appreciate it! More will be up later :)
Date: Aug 02, 2018 3:44 am Title: Chapter 16
Key chapter for Justin and Jennifer. Gus feels the pain around him and needs more reassurance.
Author's Response:
Definitely - hopefully they can also move on now. Justin would deserve it!
Yes, poor Gus notices what is going on and really needs reassurance. Hopefully Brian and Justin will realise that!
[Report This]Date: Aug 02, 2018 1:39 am Title: Chapter 16
Out of the mouth of babes.
Author's Response:
True - sometimes children know best :)
Date: Aug 02, 2018 12:19 am Title: Chapter 16
I wasn't sure if I would comment any more, yet here I am. I was a philosophy/comparative religion major in college and grad school. In my Buddism class, my professor, a Buddist monk named Chandima, despaired that I could ever understand eastern thinking. I remember telling him that I simply could not find a way to get across the river to get the boat on the other side of the river that would help me cross the river in the first place. That's kind of the way I feel here. I can't wrap my head around Justin as the Dalai Lama. Because that's the level of forgiveness that would be required here, in my opinion. And I am fully steeped in western logic, I'm afraid.
I'm sorry, but there just isn't enough forgiveness in me to be able to relate to Justin here. Perhaps that's a flaw in my own character. I prefer to think it's valuing myself as at least an equal to those who've hurt me. If it was *one* person who had betrayed Justin, I could perhaps understand somewhat. But this was a collective assault on Justin's rights and *he's* assuaging his attackers! If Molly fell in love with Chris Hobbs and the family rallied around him, keeping it quiet from Justin while giving Chris shelter and love and warmth, blindsiding Justin later to 'forgive' for the sake of the kids' comfort, would *that* be too far? I'm guess I'm still trying to find a measuring stick in this somewhere.
Seriously, Jennifer should be thanking her lucky stars that Justin's still on speaking terms with her. Her actions, above every one else - even Brian - are abysmally unforgivable. I can think of few worse betrayals by a mother toward her own child. And I still just can't see Justin as the Dalai Lama.
Author's Response:
I am definitely steeped in Western logic as well - all the way. Yet I think that forgiveness and happiness are very essential parts of human life. Anger and vindictiveness? Not that much. I am not a person that believes in anger at all. Yes, I do get angry and then I get angry at myself for getting angry to begin with - it's very twisted ;) I don't believe in revenge and I don't have an ounce of vindictiveness in me. Why? Because I don't see any point in it. Nothing good comes from those emotions. They only cost energy and hurt, but they don't do anything good for ourselves while forgiveness can actually help us move forward to a better place.
Maybe that's a flaw in my character, who knows? But so far I can say that it has worked very well for my life and I live a very happy life, so I can't find any fault yet. Maybe I was just lucky, maybe it will change in the future. Who knows? We never know what life holds... To me it just shows that everyone is different and every person has different priorities in life and different things they focus their energy on. Fair enough :)
As for Jennifer: Justin loves his mother. In the end it came down to the question: Did he want to lose her? Did he want to cut her out of his life forever? And despite all the pain and hurt and her betrayal, there is just too much love for her for Justin to not try to forgive her. Does that excuse what she did? In no way!
More will be up soon! If you continue reading (which I hope you will!), I am very curious to see if we will ever manage to get on the same page about these characters :)
I do appreciate your comments and you taking the time to leave them. Thank you so much for always making me think and second guess myself and what I have written :D
Date: Aug 02, 2018 12:18 am Title: Chapter 16
Great chapter. Step by step. Hoping they can overcome all the pain. Such a good story and love the Pgh. part also.
Author's Response:
Awwww, thank you so much :) I am glad you're enjoying the stories!
It won't be easy, but maybe they all might just make it :)